In this episode, I talk with Michael Stahnke, VP Platform at CircleCI about the “four core metrics”, and what’s next. Michael was Director of Engineering at Puppet back when Dr. Nicole Forsgren, Jez Humble, and Gene Kim created the State of DevOps report which provided a rigorous basis for focusing on four key metrics for tracking the maturity of an engineering org. When taken together, Deployment Frequency, Lead Time for Changes, Mean Time to Recover, and Change Failure Rate provide a great starting point for engineering teams looking to improve their efficiency. But no metrics are perfect. In our chat, Michael shares how (and why) he defines DevOps for different audiences, how he thinks about each of the metrics, things to bear in mind when thinking about the survey responses, and the variability in developer experience even between companies that perform well on all four metrics. And he raises the question, “once you’re performing well on the DORA Metrics, what do you prioritize improving next?”